RCB Map - Community Poll Questions

 MeTrOiD_WeaPoN


Join Date: 12 May 2011
Posts:1263
Edited 23 May 2022 - 2:47 am by MeTrOiD_WeaPoN
If 4tamer_deeped is serious about increasing future tournament amounts to $15,000 via scaling up from $1000, serious discussion needs to be done about the state of the map and balance that can be done.

Post your questions (and potentially answers) that we can put to a community vote via SurveyMonkey/another site.

Examples:

Should the number of gates you can build be limited?
  • Yes
  • No

Should bombards be limited in terms of build number/cost?
  • Yes to both
  • Build number only
  • Cost only
  • Neither


Should beginning king amounts for civilizations be changed?
  • Yes, civs need to be rebalanced
  • No, balance is good as is


Increase Harald on the top store to 16 kings?
  • Yes
  • No

Increase all buys on top store buy 1 king for units 9 and above with the exception of Tamerlane and middle purchase?
  • Yes
  • No

etc.

As the original creator of the redesigned map from 2011 v2, I will have a role if that amount of money is involved.

Please try to go through previous discussion posts about RCB to see previous ideas. Although I may be involved, I don't want to be the only one making decisions about the map. Currently, Donnie has access to Fair Mod, I do not. He'll likely be the one making changes there. Maybe we'll both do scenario editing changes, we'll see.

One change that absolutely will be done is archers of eyes will be nerfed. They're too strong at the moment. Donnie and I agree on that. Nhoobish was wrong to give them bracer. I was probably wrong to even have them on top store. Their population probably will be reduced from 139 to 120 too.

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 [7th]AwakeNg


Join Date: 15 October 2013
Posts:1279
Edited 23 May 2022 - 7:00 pm by [7th]AwakeNg
my answer is no for all questions ,some of them not that matter and some will screw map more

One change that absolutely will be done is archers of eyes will be nerfed. They're too strong at the moment. Donnie and I agree on that. Nhoobish was wrong to give them bracer. I was probably wrong to even have them on top store. Their population probably will be reduced from 139 to 120 too.
about this he wasnt wrong ,before buff archers, gate wars like persa vs azect , mongols vs viki etc had no chance in compete in the game, nerfing them too much will just flip the coin

even with buffed archer civis like azects , viki still so weak as they need fast 20 razes + 200 kills to buy subo/martel around 20-25 min ,also need spent 5 kings on vill for imp by that time other civis already more 8 kings

some civi can clear cage martel or subo with just castle units if hight pop



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 MeTrOiD_WeaPoN


Join Date: 12 May 2011
Posts:1263
Edited 23 May 2022 - 7:34 pm by MeTrOiD_WeaPoN
my answer is no for all questions ,some of them not that matter and some will screw map more

I understand why you have this perspective. You know the map now, you do well on it and don't want to lose the edges you've made for yourself. Different leagues should imply different maps and different playstyles in order to win. You guys should not be using a 2016 League map in 2022.

Think about Fortnite. They're constantly changing the map and in order to stay good, you need to learn what works in the new map. The same principle should apply here.

There will be some changes no matter what.
about this he wasnt wrong ,before buff archers, gate wars like persa vs azect , mongols vs viki etc had no chance in compete in the game, nerfing them too much will just flip the coin

I honestly couldn't tell you why I added them to the top store, to begin with. I know one of the previous versions of RCB had them. They were not buffed to this extent though. They get bonus attack vs castle units in fair mod + bracer from the map itself.

I'm going to have to look at the previous discussion to see the logic of why they're even on the map right now. Everything on a map should have a purpose. and a potential time to buy it. This was one of the long-running motivations I had when redoing the map. Back in the day, it was just a Henry V war.

Weaker civs are intended to catch up via Mordred at 16 minutes. I thought about maybe giving Mordred earlier... all of those units used to be at 13 minutes instead of 16. It may make sense to either move Mordred or move all of them to an earlier time. Moving all of them too early though makes genitour too strong against certain civilizations (e.g. mowing down Frank Paladin).

even with buffed archer civis like azects , viki still so weak as they need fast 20 razes + 200 kills to buy subo/martel around 20-25 min ,also need spent 5 kings on vill for imp by that time other civis already more 8 kings

If you're Aztec vs Persian it's intended you go Charlemagne. Historically ever since 2011 v2 this has been the case. If you play well you should be able to go Charlemagne to Khan or honestly even Harald. Map even incentivizes this by giving you refunded kings for Charlemagne to help you quick imperial.

Mongol vs Viking- Intended you go Robin. Probably Subo if you work your ass off getting razes and as long as you don't get epically ****ed in terms of the civ you're next to.

some civi can clear cage martel or subo with just castle units if hight pop

This used to be a lot worse before some of the Fair Mod Changes. For instance, giving units like Subo bonus attack vs castles to help force strong civs to not go instant Harald/Khan.


From Nhoobish's guide... not sure which version of the map this is based on.

Archers of Eyes:
This Hero is a slightly stronger Archer. Buying him costs only 2 Kings in the Top Super Store (4 Kings in Bottom Store). This unit is really good early game and strong against Infantry (expect Goths), it also fights well against other Archers (not against Britons Elite Longbowmen). Weak against Cavalry. This Hero stops spawning after a total population of 120. Mostly bought to fill Middle Towers and to get a lot of early kills.

Archers of the Eyes should be a "surprise" but risky move. Risky in that you should have the potential to get rushed and die if you buy them.

It's honestly the player base's fault that they've become so prevalent. Playstyle has honestly become more accustomed to noobs. Literally, every civ should not be buying them. That was never intended. If it was I would've just thrown them on spawn and it'd be something like Soldier Store (if you've ever played that).

Donnie said even Saracens do well with them. That's just dumb. Saracens used to rock the map with Mameluke. They should not be going to Archers of the Eyes.


Analyzing the map is going to be a lot of work. I'm waiting on community feedback to get a good base going before I devote multiple hours of my time to it.
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 ZomBunny


Join Date: 15 January 2021
Posts:39
Posted 23 May 2022 - 8:00 pm
gate + bbt limits Yes
haralds No. we have no problem with haralds actually.
we should discuss other options maybe more.
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 [7th]AwakeNg


Join Date: 15 October 2013
Posts:1279
Edited 23 May 2022 - 8:23 pm by [7th]AwakeNg
I understand why you have this perspective. You know the map now, you do well on it and don't want to lose the edges you've made for yourself. Different leagues should imply different maps and different playstyles in order to win. You guys should not be using a 2016 League map in 2022.
am not against changing ,but do edits without any point of it doesnt sounds good
making edits so we say we have new map not that worth it


ethier make early morder or increase cost of archer sounds good
i ddnt mean only azect vs persa and mongols vs viki ,talking about general out civis
robin vs strong castle units is waste actually and charm not always works
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 MeTrOiD_WeaPoN


Join Date: 12 May 2011
Posts:1263
Posted 24 May 2022 - 12:57 am
Looks like there's a bug that's leftover from when Genitour was known as Khan Defender. If you purchase Khan in the beginning instead of archers of eyes or paladins the khan has 25+19 attack. That's wrong and shouldn't happen.

Pretty much if you're a civilization that can go archers of eyes in the beginning you should get that + khan. Seems stupid not to.

One playstyle for at minimum all infantry-based civilizations is wrong. Takes away a lot of the old-school micro that was necessary to beat someone in the beginning.

A lot of implications for potential changes. All of it needs to be considered by community.
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 [7th]AwakeNg


Join Date: 15 October 2013
Posts:1279
Edited 24 May 2022 - 4:55 am by [7th]AwakeNg
Looks like there's a bug that's leftover from when Genitour was known as Khan Defender. If you purchase Khan in the beginning instead of archers of eyes or paladins the khan has 25+19 attack. That's wrong and shouldn't happen.

Pretty much if you're a civilization that can go archers of eyes in the beginning you should get that + khan. Seems stupid not to.

One playstyle for at minimum all infantry-based civilizations is wrong. Takes away a lot of the old-school micro that was necessary to beat someone in the beginning.

A lot of implications for potential changes. All of it needs to be considered by community.
its not a bug nhobish up it, let it like this plz, its become basic in 2v2
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 MeTrOiD_WeaPoN


Join Date: 12 May 2011
Posts:1263
Edited 24 May 2022 - 7:17 pm by MeTrOiD_WeaPoN
With that much ap it's arguably better to just buy that vs 9 archers of eyes regardless of civ.

The scenario currently detects teams already, it could be left for that situation.

I'm honestly having second thoughts about improving anything period (motivation dwindling with personal life stuff). We'll see how I'm feeling in a month or two and if there's good community feedback.

Again, I think it's really stupid that there's basically one playstyle now that you're pretty much forced to do due to Nhoobish changes. Still of the opinion that a new league should have a slightly altered map.
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 Les_Paul


Join Date: 6 July 2011
Posts:48
Posted 25 May 2022 - 11:53 pm
Balancing civs proposal:

Aztecs: Grant them masonry tech and buff jaguar warriors with increased creation speed and dmg bonus vs buildings.
Franks & Goths: Must start with 4 king
Koreans: Need to start at least with 2 kings, but castle age wagons need to be nerfed or they will smash archer civs.
Persians: Start with husbandry

Also, restore the original imperial age up time from TC
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 baby_cheesus


Join Date: 27 July 2021
Posts:36
Posted 6 June 2022 - 8:50 pm
Looks like Donnie made a survey: [You must login to view link]

I haven't looked at all the questions. Not sure if he pulled from here or not.
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 [XceL]Donnie


Join Date: 9 December 2008
Posts:6102
Posted 7 June 2022 - 1:00 am
Looks like Donnie made a survey: [You must login to view link]

I haven't looked at all the questions. Not sure if he pulled from here or not.[/quoteno i never saw this post i think
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 baby_cheesus


Join Date: 27 July 2021
Posts:36
Edited 11 June 2022 - 6:51 pm by baby_cheesus
I looked at/voted on the poll.

Weaken Archers of the Eyes - a stupid unit that I regret ever adding. If you go archers of eyes you should die. The person next to you should go Charlemagne and rush your ass. This sadly just doesn't happen anymore. The person that buys archers of eyes will often enough be able to feed to something like William/Theo. At best they should be going to Subo/Martel. If you just weaken them it should mean very rarely does someone get Theo/William with them. If king amounts are changed this will happen even less.

Alternatively - Removing archers of eyes will be balanced by Mordred changes.
---Having archers of the eyes in you no longer need a lot of the knowledge needed to win in the past. For instance, who wins between celt woad raider and goth huskarl... what if they're imperial... celt/jap, jap/aztec. You literally just need to buy archers of eyes and call it a day. This is indeed nhoobish. It being a noob strat doesn't mean it's necessarily bad. Not as many people play now. Might be a good idea to leave it in. Although it removes a lot of complexity... that amount of complexity is a **** to memorize.

Robin needs more attack against buildings (other than towers/gates like stables, monasteries). Faster movement speed again, increase it bigly. Subotai destroys buildings way quicker than robin, for comparison. Robin should maybe have other boosts. or maybe elite longbowmen should be boosted. Brit vs other archer civs needs comparison. I was brit vs chinese and I outplayed him yet he got subo pretty quick. Pretty dumb.

Improve Mordred spawn time and attack rate - make Mordred available at 14 minutes. Everyone gets it unless you have 20 razes already. In Fair Mod make it so Mordred can't take down gates. At 16 minutes you can choose between Frankish or Genitour. Mordred shouldn't be able to take down the house in mid currently. Just look at those changes and do the same for gates.

Genitour should be buffed ever so slightly. Need to consider Frankish vs Genitour. Frankish never stops power-up. Genitour does. Genitour can be really strong against castle units. Maybe it should have increased movement speed? Pointless in lag though. idk. Maybe slightly buffed armor and increased movement speed. Attack and hp are probably fine.

Super Store - add buy for monk techs for 1 king (needed in situations where you're forced to imperial quickly and can't afford kings for villager). Monk techs will be conversion resistance for skirms and monk range increase + maybe others.

Add Tower of Flies to back of the base again. Nhoobish removed this because it was supposedly too strong against boats? I disagree. Just increase transport ship hp by 1k or so. I'm not sure where in the triggers it is but just adding the tower back in the triggers will give it the previous hp/ap (should be around 100 ap).

Increase all heroes 9 and above (with the exception of Tamerlane) by 1 king.

Mid and global stay at the same king amounts.

Tamerlane - probably fine. More people will buy it with the increase in king amounts. It seems like it's hit or miss. If someone manages to have towers in mid + tamerlane then it's highly likely they'll win. Don't want Tamerlane to dominate too much and I could see it dominating if khan is delayed.

Beli - likely will have to be weakened with the bias towards earlier units. Make it so it's only +90 hp per king.

Changes to starting units should be considered too. I think it's weird the khan is so strong now... I'm uncertain of the scenarios where it's better to buy khan over archers of the eyes. An interesting idea is to make the initial 9 archers of eyes respawnable.


Now a big question is... if you do the above how does gameplay change for civilizations that go full castle/villager? Things may need to be tweaked for those civilizations. That will take a lot of tweaking.

Encourage battle for middle more - that's what I intend these changes to do. If the changes result in really long games though that's no good either.


If the some of the above changes are done I'll definitely help test it out.

It looks like there's a lot more suggestions here too:

https://www.voobly.com/forum/thread/337266
Quote:
some time some units in boat disappear when remove wall for two kings

Change the class of the boat in fair mod + the class of unit in the trigger so this removal only effects military units. Should fix that.

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 [XceL]Donnie


Join Date: 9 December 2008
Posts:6102
Posted 13 June 2022 - 3:24 am
here are the results of the survey I took.
Attachments:
survey.xlsx (file size: 16.26 KB)
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 baby_cheesus


Join Date: 27 July 2021
Posts:36
Edited 16 June 2022 - 8:35 pm by baby_cheesus
here are the results of the survey I took.

Increase Harald Cost - 16/25 want some change (9 No)
Increase Global Cost - 15/24 want some change (9 No)
Increase Theo Cost - 16/25 want some change (9 No)
Increase William Cost - 15/25 want some change (10 No)
Increase Beli cost - 13/23 want no change (13 No)
Limit invincible skirmishers - 16/24 want some change (8 No)
Increase Scout cost - 12/23 want no change (11 No/ No scout in 2v2/3v3)

I stopped looking at the results at Scout. It looks like you left out the question of increasing the cost of Khan.

If I was paid to edit the map / was as zealous as I used to be I would do the following changes. This was fun to think about but I just can't afford to spend the time implementing all of the below.
  • Increase cost of harald, theo, william, khan by 1 king with 2 king refund (you get the 1 additional king you pay up top refunded below, so 2 kings below)
  • Global I'm unsure of. It's probably fine where it is.
  • If harald purchased, delete the side invincible castle
  • If global purchased, delete both invincible castles
  • At 1.5k kills delete the side invincible castle
  • At 2k kills delete the other invincible castle
  • harald, theo, william, khan - any of these purchased makes the invincible castles killable - 10k hp
  • attempt to fix the middle view glitch, every 90 seconds remove map revealer and replace (I think this will work. In the past I only attempted to place every x seconds, but not remove, then place.)
  • Get rid of spies on super store, replace with monk techs buy (heresy, conversion resistance) for 1 king. Spies will be "bought" at 50 minutes for free.
  • At 16 minutes every player gets mordred if they don't have 20 razes. Increase mordred spawn time to every 2 seconds. Make it so mordred can't take down gates in fair mod and buff their attack slightly (they used to kills things a lot quicker). Make sure they can't take down the house in middle too.
  • Then at 18 minutes (increase this to 18 from 16 minutes) they then get to choose from genitour/william.
  • Determine how to make it play a sound at 18 minutes to alter genitour/william available.
  • Give all civs two free friar tucks at 40 minutes. (I say do this instead of limiting skirms). Plus this will help balance out the increased cost of william/theo. This could be changed to a unique unit... like the fast moving monk with custom conversion strength/healing/hp/defense.
  • Super Store Imperial villager buy - reduce it to 2 kings from 3
  • Encourage more boating - increase transport ship hp by 2k
  • Change remove wall buy on the super store to only remove military units. Make it so transport ship isn't removed when this is purchased (e.g. p1 purchases it, p2 happens to be loading up boat there... well p2 is currently **** out of luck since the buy removes units 3 tiles to the left and right of spawn)
  • Put Tower of Flies in the back of base again right behind spawn surrounded by haystacks
  • Make undead castles killable after 1.5 hours - 10k hp
  • Change beli hp/ap to 1/1 instead of 2hp/1ap every 20 seconds. Reduce hp from king to 90 from 100.
  • Alert tamerlane earlier, message at 90 instead of 120. More people will buy tamerlane with the changes now.
  • Make it so you get the initial 9 archers of eyes in the beginning if you purchase them and then you get 4/9 respawned. You get respawnable khan now, respawnable paladins... why not archers of eyes (note... this is just a random idea to try for fun but I would do it for the hell of it)
  • Archers of Eyes - limit pop back down to 120 (119 in trigger), no bracer
  • Currently if you buy remove palisade wall on super store for 2 kings before genitour is available, you can get a "free" genitour. Granted this doesn't give you it, it gives other players it. This should still be fixed though.
  • Make robin more effective against things like stables/archery ranges/monasteries. I buffed him in fair mod previously against towers but he's still pretty weak. I would also buff robin in general, maybe movement speed a smidge... make sure to also buff charlemagne a smidge too though. People need to rush more.
  • Change remove palisade wall buy on super store to 1 king from 2. This will make it so william/theo aren't as nerfed with increased cost.
  • Other civ balance considerations according to the poll / previous RCB discussion thread. I do like the idea of giving specific bonuses to hero units for a civ. For instance, teutons don't really get anything... they probably should. I would look at fair mod and how the castle units are designed to interact with each other. I'm pretty sure I have some things in the mod related to that.
  • Rewall spawn unit - this needs to be fixed since currently this addition allows you to see when a transport ship goes by (at least as p1)
  • I would also add king counters or at least reimplement antiblocking / prevent people from bunching up kings. At minimum you should be able to count how many kings they have regardless if they're hiding them behind flags.






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