#ReviveCS - Proposal

 SnoobDogg


Join Date: 22 January 2018
Posts:12
Posted 12 May 2024 - 1:13 am
Dear fellow players,

I'd like to address some key aspects of our beloved game and propose ideas to invigorate and sustain its player base.

Firstly, it's evident that certain updates, such as the 1.6 patch, have stirred debate within the community. While change can be unsettling, it's essential for the game's evolution. Adapting to new features is crucial, as resisting change risks stagnation and player attrition.

Recent reintroduction of the Overall ladder has reignited player interest, encouraging exploration of many maps and striving for higher ranks. However, I believe we can further expand the competitive landscape by introducing two new ladders: Random TG/1v1 and CBA Hero WK (adding, dont replacing)

Random TG is currently active for play, but its appeal is limited due to the lack of an official ladder. And CBA Hero should please have a new ladder exclusively for 1.6 patch. Introducing these ladders would accommodate the diverse preferences of players without excluding existing CS enthusiasts. I myself propose to provide the civilization balances, after discussing it with the top CS players.

Similarly, CBA Hero, a popular map, does not receive official recognition within the NPL ladder. To strenghten CS's population, I propose reconsidering atleast the rating of CBA Hero in NPL, and even CBA v21, we may have another CBA generation in the future. This adjustment could attract more players to the platform and serve as a gateway to competitive CS.

NPL is their lobby, their community. There's no reason to send them into unknown territory without a clue of how to play. NOTE: They are very welcome, but it still hinders the inflow of players besides leading them to play with strangers instead of their own people.

Furthermore, I share concerns about the declining popularity of CS and RM. While Voobly remains a stronghold for competitive play, the advent of AoE DE and AoE HD on Steam presents new challenges. However, ranked scenarios remain a unique feature of Voobly, distinguishing it from other platforms.

Additionally, events like the incoming Herofest and CBA v21 tournaments demonstrate the potential to rekindle interest and attract both new and returning players.

In conclusion, I'm optimistic about the future of CS and the broader Voobly community. By embracing change, promote inclusivity, and leveraging our unique strengths, we can ensure the longevity and vibrancy of our beloved game.

Thank you for your attention, and I look forward to hearing your thoughts and suggestions.

Best regards,
JT
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 +chris@voobly

Voobly Team


Join Date: 3 October 2007
Posts:38713
Edited 12 May 2024 - 6:21 pm by +chris@voobly
This post makes me believe, that there is still hope for CS. What we need is someone from the CS community who either works with us or contributes himself to the Voobly project.

In the latter case this has failed for various reasons -- things your normally wouldn't argue about in our flesh and blood world. Like any organization we have a hierarchy on Voobly, we have protocols and rules you have to follow, we have laws to comply with and of course no one will have access to finance, human ressources or any other classified information (source code, root passwords, database access, detailed information how Anti-Cheat or Banning works etc.). Behavior was another issue, Confidentiality was a really major problem, Privacy and Security awareness was in most cases non-existant and every constructive debate or conversation has result into rage quitting / endless drama / ignorance. And here we talk about people who claim to have an university degree or working for the big tech companies (IBM, MS, Google, Apple).

The internet has changed a lot in the past 17 years, also the laws and other regulations that affect Voobly now. Exactly like Steam and any commercial game community, also Voobly is a PG13 community. We now have many privacy regulations in effect in most Western countries and we of course enforce the highest standard (that covers all others), which is in our case the EU-GDPR (European General Data Privacy Regulation) which has become just another apple of discord.

No, you don't get access to the IP-addresses of other players. No, you don't look up their smurf accounts and share the information with your friends. No, leave the people alone already, don't kick hosts from their own game or players from finished games who prefer looking at their stats first before clicking Resume. No, stop uploading screenshots of the administrator panel on public image hosting websites. No man, why do you tell your friends who reported them or leak information posted in a restricted area. No man, you are representing Voobly now, stop behaving like a player.


See what I mean? And we haven't talked about CS yet. So yeah, regarding CS we are running in circles. Below my personal favorite Top 10 list with original quotes from our former CS Leads and people claiming this position:
  • "Let's reset all ladders! Then everyone will start playing again." "No man, we tried this numerous times already and every time we lost dozen of actively playing CS players." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Our rules are ****, we need the good old Wild West back, where moderators could do whatever they want! We need shields! We need colors! We need fancy job titles and ranks!" "No man, we have been doing this for almost 12 years, it has made things worse." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Let's unrate CS, then people will start playing all maps again!" "No man, we killed AOK that way and everyone was moving to Gameranger." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Let's merge CS with NPL / bring the same concept we already have in CS to NPL!" "What makes you think, that a concept, that does not work in CS actually works in NPL?" "I don't know, but never lose hope!!11!!1!"
  • "Map XY is super popular and needs a dedicated ladder. I am sure it would re-vive CS!" "Sounds great, let's promote the map and you actively play that map together with your friends -- we could even organize a tournament!" "No time, I have to play CBA Hero with my friends! Voobly must do this!!11!!1!"
  • "So many CBA players in NPL, please add rated ladders for CBA in NPL." "But don't you guys normally kick players or avoid their games if they play triple-tech-mod or 9x-tech-mod?' "Yes, why?" "How would this solve the problem we are having with all the CBA TTM players in NPL?" "I don't know, but perhaps it works!!11!!1!"
  • "Voobly is ****! CS is dying because lazy Voobly staff isn't doing their job!" "Voobly is a community project, become a volunteer and actively contribute to the project. Currently we have no one in CS doing this!" "No time, I have to play CBA Hero with my friends! Voobly must do this for us!!11!!1!"
  • "Didn't we want to talk about CS in the last four meetings?" "Yeah, but our new CS guy has to work this weekend... actually it's the 27th weekend in a row." "You are kidding, Chris?" "No, he is playing CBA Hero in CS using a smurf account. Can't you see, that he is working this weekend?"
  • "Can we please properly balance this incredibly bugged and unbalanced piece of cake map XY?" "Sure thing, but please don't forget, that we need the input from the community first. You are gonna talk to them?" "Sure, I am gonna do this. Easy task!" Several months later: "Any update on this?" "No time, I had to play CBA Hero with my friends!!11!!1!"
  • "I want to change XY!" "Sure, but please let's get a written concept first and an explanation how the CS community would benefit from this... as well as the input from the community and a meeting with our pro players in CS." "Sure, I am gonna do this. Easy task!" Several months later: "Any update on this?" "No time, I had to play CBA Hero with my friends. No one's gonna come to this stupid meeting anyway!!11!!1!"

So yeah, I am open to everything. Anyone interested and willing to do the job will get his fair chance. But please: none of the nonsense above. I am still waiting to read the first written concept on how to make CS great again without coming up with something, that has utterly already failed in the past.




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 SnoobDogg


Join Date: 22 January 2018
Posts:12
Posted 13 May 2024 - 5:07 pm
I really appreciate your insights into the challenges facing the CS community on Voobly. It's clear that maintaining a healthy gaming environment involves more than just playing the game...it's about respecting rules and each other. Your emphasis on behavior, confidentiality, and security is spot on.

Your list of quotes from past CS leads highlights some frustrating patterns we've seen. It's disheartening when solutions don't seem to make a difference, but your openness to trying new ideas is encouraging.

It's important to me that the concerns of the CS community are heard and addressed. I'm fully committed to advocating for CS and its users, and I'm eager to be part of finding solutions. Anything you need, whether it's feedback or assistance, just say the word.

I believe that by working together and keeping an open dialogue, we can find solutions that work for everyone in the CS community on Voobly. It's going to take time and effort, but I'm optimistic that we can make positive changes.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and being part of this conversation.

Best regards,
JT
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 [_MD_]DaGhostInside


Join Date: 21 September 2008
Posts:738
Posted 13 May 2024 - 6:28 pm
Don't bother, game is 24 years old it's just gonna keep on dying...steam has the monopoly.
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 Chebalo


Join Date: 29 August 2020
Posts:43
Posted 13 May 2024 - 6:44 pm
Don't bother, game is 24 years old it's just gonna keep on dying...steam has the monopoly.

Can't expect much from negative minded individuals. But you're not only that, also pessimistic.

CS can have a large amount of growth if subjected to the right environment of changes and effects. I believe one of the reasons Voobly altogether is seeing a downfall is largely because of its User Interface.

The UI is really unconvincing and not a pleasure to the mind. And there are technical issues and difficulties like FP which sometimes never fixes.

Also forums on voobly, stuff like ladders, discussions etc are not easily accessible. The main issue comes with the fact that if a user is facing a problem, it's very hard for them to search for a solution. This could be fixed by just creating pop-ups and prompts, for example if one finds themself fp, a dialogue box appears and lists them solutions in a user friendly way so they would be interested to read it.

The main issues lie within pleasing the users who are new to Voobly. Also promoting NPL as a whole where people can easily play games and not worry so much about grinding hard to win. CS being promoted in such a place could really bring in users who are ready for the grind to get to a better level. I'm not saying we repeat the old ideas that didn't seem to work out. But atleast just put in a ladder for custom scenario maps and some could be promoted there.


Also if a few "trusted" individuals who could be given access to NPL to be given the responsibility of promoting CS would be a great idea, given that those individuals are not present for bashing noobs.


I have many more ideas listed in my mind. I am also ready to act on them if possible
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 bonerCoaster


Join Date: 20 March 2024
Posts:14
Posted 13 May 2024 - 7:01 pm
Don't bother, game is 24 years old it's just gonna keep on dying...steam has the monopoly.

11 mad cuz Chris quoted u 10 times



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 [_MD_]DaGhostInside


Join Date: 21 September 2008
Posts:738
Posted 13 May 2024 - 7:05 pm
Chebalo wrote:
Can't expect much from negative minded individuals. But you're not only that, also pessimistic.

CS can have a large amount of growth if subjected to the right environment of changes and effects. I believe one of the reasons Voobly altogether is seeing a downfall is largely because of its User Interface.

The UI is really unconvincing and not a pleasure to the mind. And there are technical issues and difficulties like FP which sometimes never fixes.

Also forums on voobly, stuff like ladders, discussions etc are not easily accessible. The main issue comes with the fact that if a user is facing a problem, it's very hard for them to search for a solution. This could be fixed by just creating pop-ups and prompts, for example if one finds themself fp, a dialogue box appears and lists them solutions in a user friendly way so they would be interested to read it.

The main issues lie within pleasing the users who are new to Voobly. Also promoting NPL as a whole where people can easily play games and not worry so much about grinding hard to win. CS being promoted in such a place could really bring in users who are ready for the grind to get to a better level. I'm not saying we repeat the old ideas that didn't seem to work out. But atleast just put in a ladder for custom scenario maps and some could be promoted there.


Also if a few "trusted" individuals who could be given access to NPL to be given the responsibility of promoting CS would be a great idea, given that those individuals are not present for bashing noobs.


I have many more ideas listed in my mind. I am also ready to act on them if possible
Delusional and clueless
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 [Me_]Zanchy_R__


Join Date: 17 September 2021
Posts:80
Posted 13 May 2024 - 7:30 pm
+chris@voobly wrote:
This post makes me believe, that there is still hope for CS. What we need is someone from the CS community who either works with us or contributes himself to the Voobly project.

In the latter case this has failed for various reasons -- things your normally wouldn't argue about in our flesh and blood world. Like any organization we have a hierarchy on Voobly, we have protocols and rules you have to follow, we have laws to comply with and of course no one will have access to finance, human ressources or any other classified information (source code, root passwords, database access, detailed information how Anti-Cheat or Banning works etc.). Behavior was another issue, Confidentiality was a really major problem, Privacy and Security awareness was in most cases non-existant and every constructive debate or conversation has result into rage quitting / endless drama / ignorance. And here we talk about people who claim to have an university degree or working for the big tech companies (IBM, MS, Google, Apple).

The internet has changed a lot in the past 17 years, also the laws and other regulations that affect Voobly now. Exactly like Steam and any commercial game community, also Voobly is a PG13 community. We now have many privacy regulations in effect in most Western countries and we of course enforce the highest standard (that covers all others), which is in our case the EU-GDPR (European General Data Privacy Regulation) which has become just another apple of discord.

No, you don't get access to the IP-addresses of other players. No, you don't look up their smurf accounts and share the information with your friends. No, leave the people alone already, don't kick hosts from their own game or players from finished games who prefer looking at their stats first before clicking Resume. No, stop uploading screenshots of the administrator panel on public image hosting websites. No man, why do you tell your friends who reported them or leak information posted in a restricted area. No man, you are representing Voobly now, stop behaving like a player.


See what I mean? And we haven't talked about CS yet. So yeah, regarding CS we are running in circles. Below my personal favorite Top 10 list with original quotes from our former CS Leads and people claiming this position:
  • "Let's reset all ladders! Then everyone will start playing again." "No man, we tried this numerous times already and every time we lost dozen of actively playing CS players." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Our rules are ****, we need the good old Wild West back, where moderators could do whatever they want! We need shields! We need colors! We need fancy job titles and ranks!" "No man, we have been doing this for almost 12 years, it has made things worse." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Let's unrate CS, then people will start playing all maps again!" "No man, we killed AOK that way and everyone was moving to Gameranger." "Yes, but perhaps it works this time!!11!!1!"
  • "Let's merge CS with NPL / bring the same concept we already have in CS to NPL!" "What makes you think, that a concept, that does not work in CS actually works in NPL?" "I don't know, but never lose hope!!11!!1!"
  • "Map XY is super popular and needs a dedicated ladder. I am sure it would re-vive CS!" "Sounds great, let's promote the map and you actively play that map together with your friends -- we could even organize a tournament!" "No time, I have to play CBA Hero with my friends! Voobly must do this!!11!!1!"
  • "So many CBA players in NPL, please add rated ladders for CBA in NPL." "But don't you guys normally kick players or avoid their games if they play triple-tech-mod or 9x-tech-mod?' "Yes, why?" "How would this solve the problem we are having with all the CBA TTM players in NPL?" "I don't know, but perhaps it works!!11!!1!"
  • "Voobly is ****! CS is dying because lazy Voobly staff isn't doing their job!" "Voobly is a community project, become a volunteer and actively contribute to the project. Currently we have no one in CS doing this!" "No time, I have to play CBA Hero with my friends! Voobly must do this for us!!11!!1!"
  • "Didn't we want to talk about CS in the last four meetings?" "Yeah, but our new CS guy has to work this weekend... actually it's the 27th weekend in a row." "You are kidding, Chris?" "No, he is playing CBA Hero in CS using a smurf account. Can't you see, that he is working this weekend?"
  • "Can we please properly balance this incredibly bugged and unbalanced piece of cake map XY?" "Sure thing, but please don't forget, that we need the input from the community first. You are gonna talk to them?" "Sure, I am gonna do this. Easy task!" Several months later: "Any update on this?" "No time, I had to play CBA Hero with my friends!!11!!1!"
  • "I want to change XY!" "Sure, but please let's get a written concept first and an explanation how the CS community would benefit from this... as well as the input from the community and a meeting with our pro players in CS." "Sure, I am gonna do this. Easy task!" Several months later: "Any update on this?" "No time, I had to play CBA Hero with my friends. No one's gonna come to this stupid meeting anyway!!11!!1!"

So yeah, I am open to everything. Anyone interested and willing to do the job will get his fair chance. But please: none of the nonsense above. I am still waiting to read the first written concept on how to make CS great again without coming up with something, that has utterly already failed in the past.

Random TG was responsible for a lot of CS activity in past 8 years.
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 +chris@voobly

Voobly Team


Join Date: 3 October 2007
Posts:38713
Edited 13 May 2024 - 8:02 pm by +chris@voobly
Chebalo wrote:
Also if a few "trusted" individuals who could be given access to NPL to be given the responsibility of promoting CS would be a great idea, given that those individuals are not present for bashing noobs.

We never banned any CS players from NPL. Unless you are not actively playing in MS, you can enter NPL as CS player.

Also Member Pluses can enter NPL, even if they are banned from playing in NPL. Enrollments are open, anyone can apply for it and contribute to the Voobly project.
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 +chris@voobly

Voobly Team


Join Date: 3 October 2007
Posts:38713
Posted 13 May 2024 - 8:05 pm
Don't bother, game is 24 years old it's just gonna keep on dying...steam has the monopoly.

You are forgetting Microsoft's product lifecycle. What are we doing in three years, when MS announces EOL for DE? We should be happy to have Voobly and keep it alive.
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 [_MD_]DaGhostInside


Join Date: 21 September 2008
Posts:738
Posted 13 May 2024 - 8:39 pm
+chris@voobly wrote:
You are forgetting Microsoft's product lifecycle. What are we doing in three years, when MS announces EOL for DE? We should be happy to have Voobly and keep it alive.
What's that got to do with anything? You think ppl stop playing when a game don't receive updates anymore? Nope
If im a new player and i want to play an old game am i gonna go look for an obscure website or just buy it on steam?
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 +chris@voobly

Voobly Team


Join Date: 3 October 2007
Posts:38713
Edited 13 May 2024 - 10:05 pm by +chris@voobly
SnoobDogg wrote:
I believe that by working together and keeping an open dialogue, we can find solutions that work for everyone in the CS community on Voobly. It's going to take time and effort, but I'm optimistic that we can make positive changes.
Back in 1999 I was a CS player at the MSN Gaming Zone and even though I was never playing much (IT was simply more interesting than Games for us nerds) I completely stopped playing this game in 2013. People were not playing for fun anymore, there was high toxicity and many players would literally sell their own mother just to avoid the loss of "puntos". It simply wasn't the CS community anymore I used to love and play with and CBA was simply a nightmare.

Instead I decided to build up a technical support team in 2013, a technical knowledge base and we focussed on answering threads at the Voobly forums, where players were actually seeking for help. From technical issues, over general Voobly issues to general complaints -- besides the game complaints we had from beginning. I had a great time and recruited many good people over all the years. Until 2015 I was in charge of the Technical Support Team and the Voobly servers, so yeah, I was technical staff only.

In 2015, I was asked / offered to take over Voobly Administration after staff changes and my first official act was introducing corporate structures. We started with a matrix organization where all roles and responsibilities were explained in detail and strictly enforced. Within a few weeks it was clearly communicated to everyone, who had which responsibility and the order to stay out of anything else + who is the person in the hierarchy they must report to. As we already know this from reorganization measures in companies, we started separating the wheat from the chaff, people who refused to work with us or rioting against us were asked to leave / fired.

A few months later we announced our CI, mainly a document that explains our values and goals, but also a document with protocols and rules. One important change was the way, how we looked at the Voobly project, especially the role of our "moderators" at that time. With more than one hundred complaints every year no one on Voobly was denying, that the current moderator program is a big problem for everyone. We have spent hundreds of hours every year until 2019 to train our staff in so called orientation meetings. The message: we are a helping organization, we want to make Voobly a fun place for everyone and we are not the police of Voobly. And we wanted to get off this "Wild West" environment where moderators could pretty much do anything and then get away with it. It was a complete disaster. Our lesson's learnt after 36 months: people don't change, unless they are forced to. Our consequences: the moderator program was retired, all moderators were fired.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel, I did what all pragmatists would do in that situation. We introduced the Member Plus program, something Microsoft retired in 2006 when they were closing the Zone. The idea was the same, a voluntary program where anyone interested could join and contribute to the project. Unlike the old moderator program, Member Pluses are not part of the Voobly Team. They have privileges on client only, but at the forums and our website they are normal players only and their only task is to help players and keep clean the lobby chat. For anything else, they are just like normal players. The forums must be used for game complaints, general complaints, general support and technical support. They are here to point the community to the right direction. It's not their job to deal with any of those things.

Former staff I recruited for technical support in the past was now in charge of these forums; the new Voobly Team. It worked! The complaints finally stopped, the negative discussions about corrupt moderators and abusive staff on AoeZone and other places outside of Voobly was over. The gasp of relief was later reflected by many players within the community, who were suddenly sharing their thoughts with us.

In 2020 we introduced our new Voobly compliance, thanks to a lawyer's office and a good friend of mine. We updated the client and the website to comply with those laws in most Western countries, focussing on US and EU law. We updated our Terms of Use, our Privacy Policy and our Code of Conduct to reflect these changes. Voobly 1.0. Finally it was possible to properly work with each other.

In the following years we released a new website called MPHQ, the main hub of the Member Plus program. We merged four websites into MPHQ. Our technical knowledge base (aka Voobly HQ), the project website of Community Patch 1.6, the voluntary program website which was Confluence based at that time and our bugtracker / internal forums. In 2023 we even released a tournament tool at MPHQ, to allow players to easily organize tournaments at Voobly.

People who want to contribute to the Voobly project must enroll as Member Plus and will later be accepted as Voobly Team members. Similar to opensource projects, where trust must be built up first, so we get to know this person first, who wants to work with us.

For many years I was doing the same on Voobly, I was actually doing at work. I was restructuring companies who couldn't solve their organizational problems on their own.

So yeah, it was a long journey. I hope this helps everyone to understand my role here at Voobly. We don't do things, without explaining how the Voobly project and the community would benefit from any proposed changes. We keep up the Status Quo and don't come to decisions, that would expose the Voobly project to unforeseeable risks. And please trust me, I am doing Change Management for many, really many years already. Changes are best applied in many small pieces and tiny steps.

Thanks for your time and reading this.
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 Coles


Join Date: 8 February 2021
Posts:192
Posted 13 May 2024 - 9:54 pm
Delusional and clueless

I think there's a valid point. Not sure why negativity seems the resort for you there
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 +chris@voobly

Voobly Team


Join Date: 3 October 2007
Posts:38713
Posted 13 May 2024 - 9:59 pm
What's that got to do with anything? You think ppl stop playing when a game don't receive updates anymore? Nope
If im a new player and i want to play an old game am i gonna go look for an obscure website or just buy it on steam?
Well, you are playing on Voobly, which is why I assume that having a social gaming environment is important to you. If that isn't the case then I agree, Steam is probably the better platform for you.

Please read this: [You must login to view link]
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 bonerCoaster


Join Date: 20 March 2024
Posts:14
Edited 13 May 2024 - 10:04 pm by bonerCoaster
11 u just one platformer ghost, one mapper wasnt enough, always want more.


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