RCB Fair Mod questions and answers?

 [Eot_]Evil_Weasel


Join Date: 21 August 2012
Posts:604
Edited 14 May 2021 - 11:53 am by [Eot_]Evil_Weasel
this is basically why i stopped playing this map. it turned into either excessive feeding to harold after 30 min or camping for 2 hours. making subo a bit cheaper might prevent the feeding a little bit, because going vills + spamming units leeds to feeding the players that can get decent heroes earlier. and you might be able to kill someone going to harold when multiple people take a weaker hero earlier. dont know about martel, 7 kings might be too cheap
the camping is usually due to the powering up heroes. nobody wants to fight them, because you dont get many kills and you lose a lot if he can trap you. and the player with the power-up hero rather camps to get them stronger. a powerup limit for those units might give a n incentive to use them once they are near it or already reached it. but then again, it would need to be high enough to not make the unit useless. maybe just make them more expensive? never liked those units anyway, usually end up in a bad game when somebody picks them.
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 [Eot_]Evil_Weasel


Join Date: 21 August 2012
Posts:604
Edited 14 May 2021 - 12:02 pm by [Eot_]Evil_Weasel
Belisarius
  • Reload Time 1.8 -> 2.0 (potential nerf, this reverts it back to original)
    Below are undocumented changes made by Weapon which further have buffed Belisarius.
  • Melee Damage now (24), Melee Damage original (9) (can be reverted to prevent snowballing and camp games)
  • Movement Speed now (1.45), Movement Speed original (1.35) (I think this is justified so that Subotai cannot endlessy Hit and Run Belisarius, but also can be adjusted, if necessary)

William the Conqueror
  • Reload Time 1.86 -> 2.0 (potential nerf, this reverts it back to original)
    Below are undocumented changes made by Weapon which further have buffed William the Conqueror.
  • Movement Speed now (1.40), Movement Speed original (1.32) (since William the Conqueror is a beefier unit than Belisarius I am not entirely convinced that a speed buff versus Subotai and other Cavalry Archer heroes is required, but this should not be the first nerf to keep in mind)

Theodoric the Goth
  • Reload Time 1.65 -> 2.0 (potential nerf, this reverts it back to original)
    Below are undocumented changes made by Weapon which further have buffed Theodoric the Goth.
  • Movement Speed now (1.05), Movement Speed original (0.90) (very beefy unit that does not need a speed buff, yet also should not be the first nerf)

Overall, the first changes I would like to make are reverting the Attack Speeds of these three heroes back to original.

Belis back to 1 attack per 2 seconds instead of 1.80 seconds, William back to 1 attack per 2 seconds instead of 1.86 seconds and Theo back to 1 attack per 2 seconds instead of 1.65 seconds.

NB! I understand that this is not a direct nerf to the cost of kings or to the power-up, but these changes make these units effectively worse against every other unit in the game. This results in worse performance in mass unit battles and should make people reconsider buying them as often.

The reason behind is that I understand the camping endgame with 3 hours or more no action and just waiting for units to power up is not good state for the game. I consider this the most crucial issue, other moderate and minor issues can be looked at after the nerf to Belisarius, William and Theo have been agreed upon.
i dont think attack speed is the issue or very relevant. once the units catch up with yours, they kill them in 1 or 2 hits. anything they touch dies pretty quickly, the hard part is actually attacking the gates, pyramid or trapping the units. i feel like them infinitely powering is the issue, because why not wait until they are strong enough to kill everyone? and if you run around with them in the middle, other players hide in their bases and fight their neighbours at best, because you might lose 100+ pop if you go out to the middle or get trapped at the entrance of someones base.
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Edited 14 May 2021 - 7:20 pm by ['RB']nhoobish
Update 2021.01

Belisarius
  • Reload Time 1.8 -> 2.0 (takes 2 seconds per attack instead of 1.8 seconds)
  • Melee Damage 24 -> 9 (note: this is the base AP when it spawns, the power-up was not touched)
  • Movement Speed 1.45 -> 1.35 (does not catch up as effectively to Hit and Run heroes)

William the Conqueror
  • Reload Time 1.86 -> 2.0 (takes 2 seconds per attack instead of 1.86 seconds)
  • Movement Speed 1.40 -> 1.32 (does not catch up as effectively to Hit and Run heroes)

Theodoric the Goth
  • Reload Time 1.65 -> 2.0 (takes 2 seconds per attack instead of 1.65 seconds)
  • Movement Speed 1.05 -> 0.90 (does not catch up as effectively to Hit and Run heroes)
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Posted 16 May 2021 - 7:06 pm
For the next change I would like to introduce a small nerf to buying an early Villager. RCB as scenario for a very long time has been hero or UU oriented. But after the cost of the Villager was changed to 5 Kings years back it resulted in a major shift in gameplay. It allowed players to invest only 5 Kings in the beginning of the match and outproduce AND outmatch their opponents with a mix of stronger or flat out better units that were available from Castles alone.

The change I would implement would not change the cost of the Villager purchase, so players will still have the option to have an early Villager buy. Instead the time to advance to Imperial Age would be increased as well as the production time for every Villager made from your TC.

This would mean that the people who aim to buy Villager and rush to Khan or Harald (sometimes even Global) with their production spam will be delayed a few more minutes at the start of the match. In other words, they will not get the best razes available and hopefully outproducing any of the other players (who went for Castles) will take a bit longer than normal.

Proposed changes
  • Imperial Age Research Time 190 -> 300 seconds
  • Villager Creation Time 25 -> 30 seconds

Note: The Villager cost of Kings is not getting changed.
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Edited 21 May 2021 - 4:26 pm by ['RB']nhoobish
Update 2021.02
  • Imperial Age Research Time 190 -> 300 seconds
  • Villager Creation Time 25 -> 30 seconds

Instead of making the Villager cost 6 Kings (so that noone can buy it instantly at the start of the round) a different type of delay has been added. Creating Villagers is now slightly slower than before and getting to Imperial Age takes more time than normal.

This means the Paladin flood to the Middle or to the opposing Player in your Corner is delayed. Not all the best Razing options are available after that 2 minute delay and other players in the match are likely to be able to deal better against a Castle/BBT/whatever charge push is going to occur.

In the long run the Villager player is still going to overpower others in most cases, perhaps not so effective against Charlemagne anymore. Buying Villager and rushing to Global/Harald/Khan should offer a lot more risk than before.
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 RiversPlate


Join Date: 4 July 2012
Posts:226
Posted 22 May 2021 - 2:58 am
make a version also for 7 player or 6 player.. with more benefits to red slot. or punish blue.

Fix KING hero bug.. start dead with 6 or 7 player
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Posted 22 May 2021 - 8:51 am
make a version also for 7 player or 6 player.. with more benefits to red slot. or punish blue.

No.
Fix KING hero bug.. start dead with 6 or 7 player

I do not know what this means. You know what this means. Please be more specific.
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 [7th]LittleMe__


Join Date: 15 October 2013
Posts:1216
Posted 22 May 2021 - 5:47 pm
I trust you boss nhobish ... make it better plz but care the balance dont kill theo Williams etc or ppl with bad start has no more chance
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Edited 24 May 2021 - 7:23 pm by ['RB']nhoobish
Regarding Tiny Island King death.

I was scouring the triggers with ingame scenario editor, AoKTS, LuaTrig yet I did not manage to come across anything useful. Can anyone provide extra information regarding P2 King dying at the start of the game, so not being able to get Paladin, Archers or Khan.

Hypothesis what may cause it:
A) During the game start with performance or connection issues the Triggers get loaded slower and the P1 Khan (before triggers make it Gaia) attacks P2 King.
B) There is a buggy Kill Trigger that is detecting balance/teams/civs/players (or something) and the clean-up effect overlaps to wrong areas.

Possible solutions that may work:
1) Give Kings 32k HP with the mod, so if the P1 Store units really attack Kings then they cannot die.
2) Spawn in all Kings after all triggers on the map have loaded/fired (most likely after 3 seconds).

If you have any information, please share. A recording could prove really useful.
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Posted 24 May 2021 - 8:36 pm
Thanks to Acid (for finding the rec) and Teravi (drawing enough attention).



So, most likely tomorrow I will update the scenario so that the Kings spawn after 3 seconds. People who use Idle Military button to go to the King instantly should push that cycle later down their action list.
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 AtheistMonk


Join Date: 15 January 2021
Posts:6
Posted 25 May 2021 - 9:29 pm
i think we must add some speed for kings movement and respawning khan is very useless for the begining maybe we should transfer that king to kings store
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 RiversPlate


Join Date: 4 July 2012
Posts:226
Posted 25 May 2021 - 9:36 pm
there is a bug, when you are Red at 6 or 7 players game. Your hero king start dead.. u cant get the 10 archers, the palads or respawning khan.. your king start dead and you are 90%gg
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 RiversPlate


Join Date: 4 July 2012
Posts:226
Edited 25 May 2021 - 9:50 pm by RiversPlate
i think we must add some speed for kings movement and respawning khan is very useless for the begining maybe we should transfer that king to kings store


Nobish will solve it adding 32k hp to kings.. agree at respawning khan.. its useless. remove the respawning khan, or add 10Ap more, so maybe people have more intention to get khan respawning.

Make subotai cost 6 kings, 7 is expensive.. nobody taking subo.

change Treb Store.. - make it 2 trebs For 5 kings. (max 2 trebs only) or 3 kings every treb .. 4 its expensive
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 RiversPlate


Join Date: 4 July 2012
Posts:226
Edited 25 May 2021 - 9:57 pm by RiversPlate
agree.. i like the fair mod.. its good map.. the key its dont make bigg changes..

As my father used to say, the search for perfection is the enemy of good.

When something is working well, changes should be small and thoughtful. Big changes can ruin what works well.

Something that is perfect and should not be modified is the color of the ground, design of the bases and the map.

The improvements must be in the heroes, make the map more fair, avoid the feed fest, or corner feeds
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 ['RB']nhoobish


Join Date: 8 August 2010
Posts:3314
Edited 26 May 2021 - 1:02 pm by ['RB']nhoobish
there is a bug, when you are Red at 6 or 7 players game. Your hero king start dead.. u cant get the 10 archers, the palads or respawning khan.. your king start dead and you are 90%gg

This is being fixed. Update soon.
agree at respawning khan.. its useless. remove the respawning khan, or add 10Ap more, so maybe people have more intention to get khan respawning.

change Treb Store.. - make it 2 trebs For 5 kings. (max 2 trebs only) or 3 kings every treb .. 4 its expensive

I do not think it is useless, but I am willing to buff it, since I am well aware noone really uses it, even in the situations I do.

I think Trebs are fine, I recently used them effectively on a player who was going Global, cost seemed justified. It would be possible, however, to lower the cost as the game progresses. In other words 0 to 59 minutes = 4 kings cost, 60 to 119 minutes = 3 kings cost, 120 to 179 minutes = 2 kings cost, 180+ = 1 king cost.


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