Community Forums > General > Suggestions & New Game Support > Suggestion: Drop Percentage Indicator & Lagg Indicator

Suggestion: Drop Percentage Indicator & Lagg Indicator

 GenericUser1


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Posted 12 December 2018 - 8:17 am
Drop % Indicator: It's very frustrating to start several games in a row, only to have a dropper in all of them. Most people have good internet connections and rarely drop, but the few frequent droppers who play greatly reduce the fun for the rest of the community. I suggest that when you hover over someone's name, there will be a number indicating the % of games they started that they dropped. To account for the fact that people might change internet services, this number should only take into account recent-ish games (for example, the past 100 games or all the games started in the last month). It would greatly improve the community's playing experience if these frequent droppers, who make up <10% of players, would be able to be identified simply by hovering over their name, in which case they could be kicked from the room by the host. Other games such as CS:GO and LoL already have systems that harshly punish dropping, and I believe Voobly would benefit from a similar system.

Lagg Indicator: Using /ping only pings once, and because it's not continuous ping spikes are harder to catch. In addition, you can only see your ping time with other players, not other players' pings with each other. This greatly limits the usefulness of the /ping command. I suggest that a feature be implemented that allows the host to "test" the connections for a minute before starting the game. During this "test" time, a graph will be generated via continuous pinging between all pairs of players. There should be one line per player, indicating that players' average ping with the others at a certain moment in time. This graph would semi-accurately reflect the actual lagg if this were one minute of AoC playing instead of one minute of continuous ping testing. This would help identify laggers and make the game more enjoyable for everyone else.
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Posted 12 December 2018 - 4:00 pm
in which case they could be kicked from the room by the host.

Most players don't drop on purpose and punishing a player for dropping is not ethically or morally the right thing to do. This is probably something we will never implement. That said, you have the right to choose not to play with a frequent dropper. You can also block players and add them to your ignore list.

While I certainly do see the merits of having a drop count, we cannot be biased towards a player based on this number.

I suggest that a feature be implemented that allows the host to "test" the connections for a minute before starting the game. During this "test" time, a graph will be generated via continuous pinging between all pairs of players.

A continuous ping can lead to frequent client crashes and therefore will probably never be implemented. Furthermore, most lags account to players being fast proxy to one another. If all players make a conscious effort to fix this and ensure they have a direct connection you are less likely to have lag games.
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 GenericUser1


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Edited 13 December 2018 - 7:31 am by GenericUser1
Most players don't drop on purpose and punishing a player for dropping is not ethically or morally the right thing to do. This is probably something we will never implement. That said, you have the right to choose not to play with a frequent dropper. You can also block players and add them to your ignore list.

While I certainly do see the merits of having a drop count, we cannot be biased towards a player based on this number.




A continuous ping can lead to frequent client crashes and therefore will probably never be implemented. Furthermore, most lags account to players being fast proxy to one another. If all players make a conscious effort to fix this and ensure they have a direct connection you are less likely to have lag games.

I can block droppers, but they just play on different accounts and oftentimes if you're playing with a random person you don't know if he/she is a dropper. A drop count would definitely help.
Also, saying that punishing droppers isn't ethically/morally right is just plain wrong. It doesn't matter if people drop on purpose or not. What matters is that they ruin the fun for the rest of the players. It's like saying that if it were my fault that I ran over several people with a car on accident, I shouldn't have to pay them anything because I didn't do it on purpose, even though I greatly harmed them. Is it really "ethically and morally" right for me to just walk away because it wasn't "on purpose?" Are they supposed to just "block me" and not walk on the same roads I drive? What matters is that I have done something wrong and reparations must be made. In this case, revoking my right to drive in order to ensure others' right to feel safe as a pedestrian is the right thing to do, and in the case of droppers, revoking their right to play in order to ensure the others' right to enjoy the game is the right thing to do.
I see no reason for Voobly to not follow the lead of modern games such as CSGO and LoL. Every big game today punishes droppers, and one of the reasons I don't play AoC a ton is because drops happen in 1/4 of the games. Are all those games just "ethically" and "morally" wrong? Is CSGO the devil's creation because it bans frequent droppers?

As for the continuous pinging, that's harder to implement, and I understand that, but it's just a little helpful feature so whatever if it's not implemented. However, you are definitely wrong when you say that only FP connections lagg. It often happens that I have good pings to everyone but some other pair of players who have a direct connection still lagg.

I understand that you are making the rules here, not me, so these won't be implemented, but I want you to understand that your argument that "damage that happens accidentally should not result in consequences" is completely, absolutely invalid. There is no way you believe in your own argument unless you're the type of person who, if you break your friend's laptop accidentally, tell him/her, "it was an accident, so it's morally and ethically unjust for me to give you compensation."

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Posted 14 December 2018 - 8:18 am
If it makes you feel any better, I don't make the rules here. I simply follow them. Contrary to popular belief staff members are bound by the same rules as regular players are. Furthermore, I have no say on this matter and I just gave you my perspective from a tech standpoint.

Punishing droppers would mean putting more than 1/3rd of our community out of Voobly. Like I mentioned earlier, I do see the merits in having a drop count however, punishing players for dropping is just not right (no matter how you justify it). Intentional drops can be reported on the complaints forum but requires strong evidence.
However, you are definitely wrong when you say that only FP connections lagg. It often happens that I have good pings to everyone but some other pair of players who have a direct connection still lagg.

Seems like you too are a victim of a common misunderstanding, so let me clarify...

Every player needs to have a direct connection to every other player and not just you or the host. It's a peer to peer connection at the end of the day, so if 2 players in the pool have a problem connecting each other, everyone else will share the lag too. My point is that if every player in a game room makes a cautious and responsible effort in trying to fix their fast proxy warning (rather than blatantly ignoring it), I suppose we will have a much better outcome as opposed to tagging and punishing droppers.

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 GenericUser1


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Posted 14 December 2018 - 12:47 pm
If it makes you feel any better, I don't make the rules here. I simply follow them. Contrary to popular belief staff members are bound by the same rules as regular players are. Furthermore, I have no say on this matter and I just gave you my perspective from a tech standpoint.

Punishing droppers would mean putting more than 1/3rd of our community out of Voobly. Like I mentioned earlier, I do see the merits in having a drop count however, punishing players for dropping is just not right (no matter how you justify it). Intentional drops can be reported on the complaints forum but requires strong evidence.



Seems like you too are a victim of a common misunderstanding, so let me clarify...

Every player needs to have a direct connection to every other player and not just you or the host. It's a peer to peer connection at the end of the day, so if 2 players in the pool have a problem connecting each other, everyone else will share the lag too. My point is that if every player in a game room makes a cautious and responsible effort in trying to fix their fast proxy warning (rather than blatantly ignoring it), I suppose we will have a much better outcome as opposed to tagging and punishing droppers.

I never suggested that people be punished for dropping occasionally, which is why I want a percentage indicator so that hosts can make their own decisions. Stuff happens and dropping in a small percentage of games is acceptable, and I believe the majority of the community rarely drops. However, if someone starts 100 games and drops in 10+ of them, then it would be very useful for the host to know that there is a frequent dropper in the room.

In response to your later statement, I understand (and understood) that the lagg is the highest ping out of all pairwise connections. If you read my comment more carefully, you will see that what I am trying to say is that direct connections can still be laggy, so it is important to identify possible laggy connections between a pair of players, meaning that allowing the host to see all pairwise pings, not just his/her own with other players, would be a good idea. I never play with FP connections. It's standard practice (and pretty much everyone follows it) to not start with a FP connection, and FP lagg is easy identifiable in game due to how distinct it is from a laggy direct connection, and a laggy direct connection is unfortunately often hard to identify in the lobby.

Also, if you have no say over feature implementation and are just here for tech support, then you should have forwarded my comment to those people. I do not need tech support and I do not wish to argue further with someone who simply says "Punishing droppers is wrong. I'm right. You had good counterarguments? Well, whatever, I'm definitely right any way you see it. Oh, by the way, I'm not actually in charge of anything related to your original request, so this is a pointless argument and you're getting trolled." I have a reasonable understanding of how lagg (and dropping) in the game works, and I am here to request a new feature to fix it.

I understand that logic rarely wins and the way the world works is that the people in charge just say "I'm right. You're wrong. I'm doing what I want.", so I will stop replying to this thread if someone in charge of feature implementation tells me "We won't do this," even if they do not attempt to counter any of my arguments (which will make me quite frustrated with Voobly's staff, but at that point at least I will realize that the people in charge essentially said "No. I don't care that your arguments are much better than mine. We're in charge, so we're not going to refute any of your points and we're doing what we want." which is a common enough occurrence that I'm used to it).
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Posted 15 December 2018 - 7:54 am
I will reiterate, what you are asking for is unreasonable and cannot be implemented for reasons I very clearly mentioned above. You are not the first one to come up with this suggestion but it's not a practical solution. So end of discussion there.

The only reason why I chose to reply again is because you still don't seem to understand the difference between a direct connection and ping. If all 8 players in a game room have direct connection to each other (which I would say is roughly about 70% of the games played on Voobly), then you are very likely to have minimal to no lag in game. Ofc there is still a 2% chance of a small lag depending on the internet speed of all the users, geographical location and their security settings, but for most games it will be lag free. The common myth is that since the ping is low, so we should be fine (regardless of the player being fp), which is entirely wrong.

On the contrary if 2 or more players out of 8 are fp to each other (maybe none to you as a host), you are bound to experience laggy games. You would be surprised how many would actually bother pointing it out. Players who are regularly fp are very well aware of this and just choose to ignore it rather than bothering to fix it. Besides there is always the risk of them getting kicked by some hosts which is why they choose to stay mum on it.

Anyway long story short, drop count cannot be implemented. And as for lag games, your best bet is to try and ask if anyone in the room is fp to anyone else and have them try and fix it if they can. Tech staff members are happy to assist players fix their fast proxy issues so you can direct them to the tech forums.

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 GenericUser1


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Posted 15 December 2018 - 8:20 am
All right, this is my last post since you don't seem interested in legitimately talking with me and you are simply asserting your authority. I still don't understand why if you claim that you have "no say" in this matter, you're acting as if you are in control of this matter and saying "No. We won't implement this." You directly contradict yourself by both claiming to not be responsible for implementation of new features and then saying that you won't implement this feature.
Yes, I understand how connections work. In fact, I probably understand them better than you, considering you don't seem to understand them enough to understand what I wrote in my posts. It's really frustrating that you keep diverting the talk to direct connections/fast proxy when I made it clear in my posts that I already know that stuff. You lecturing me about connections is like a tech support person telling "make sure your computer is plugged in" three times in a row if I make a post about why my computer won't turn on. It seems like you're just adding fluff to your post to make it seem more complete and meet your word count quota.
I'm extremely disappointed in Voobly, and it's not because they chose not to implement this feature. Rather, it is the way they (or you? do you speak for all of them? you claimed not to and also indirectly claimed to) responded to my request, which is by acting ultra self-righteous by refusing to counter my arguments (you could argue that I acted self-righteous too, but I have multiple legitimate points that you didn't answer), going on a tangent about a marginally related issue, lying by claiming you both have control and don't have control over this issue, and essentially doing everything to circumvent my arguments while acting like you're correct. I expected Voobly to have better "tech support" than the idiots at other companies, but I guess all "tech support" is the same. It seems like companies just pull random Joes off the street regardless of how competent they are, give them 20 pages of documentation, and whenever someone has an issue, the tech support person will just reiterate whatever's pre-written, regardless of whether it's relevant to the issue or not, in addition to adding a little fluff that's marginally related to the issue.
If Voobly had actually legitimately responded to my inquiries, then I would only be mildly disappointed, but it seems that either you are unwilling to spend the effort to do so or lack the ability to do so.
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Posted 15 December 2018 - 10:30 am
You are right. I rather go back to my 20 page documentation. Good luck. ;flowers


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